Sunday, February 01, 2009

"Allah" And What Apocryphalist Thinks....

As usual, I was reading the blogs and found myself at Jebat Must Die.
He has published the views of his regular reader, Apocryphalist on the controversy surrounding the insistence of Herald (the Catholic newsletter) on using the word, "Allah" in its Bahasa Malaysia version.
(The case is now before the courts and is pending a ruling.)

JMD's posting, "The Name Allah: Quid Pro Quo On the Christian Community", will undoubtedly spark another round of (healthy? constructive?) debate on the subject in blogosphere.

Anyway, here's what Apocryphalist has to say:

The illustrious Malaysian Christian community have repeatedly asked that the name of Allah be allowed to be used in their bible, and the Malaysian government has repeatedly disallowed it for reasons of purity and sanctity: that by doing so is like admitting that that same Allah is the one who has a begotten son, shares the credit of creation with 2 other godhoods or godheads and teaches that everyone is born in sin and therefore registers a place in hellfire unless he/she admits that this begotten son of his was let to die to redeem for that original sin.
Of course what seems to be a minor religious quagmire has now turned to a pseudo-political major imbroglio especially when the muslims on the other hand assert that those very same entity by the name Allah refute those very dogmatic ideologies and (islamic-wise) blasphemies in the Quran.
As long as both parties sweep the issue under the carpet, and not highlight too much on differences and focus on similarities and converging points of beliefs, the two religions enjoy peaceful and harmonious coexistence, especially on the top levels.

But the issue on deity names have been thought of as threading on the shaky paths of conflict.
I have dealt with this issue in a writing on Nov 12, 8:21 am in a much more concise albeit humorous manner.
I think it is time for the Christians in Malaysia to play a role if they really are serious about this issue: putting the name Allah in the bible should be allowed by the Government of Malaysia only if the local christians believe sincerely in their heart that this is the REAL name of God.


CONTINUE READING HERE...

54 comments:

Anonymous said...

SIGH ! pls sweep this under the thick carpet lah ( dun let the evil fallen angels giggle ..hehehe ), ok !
GODBLESS & PEACE be upon ALL in the universe, amen !
btw , beware of 21-12-2012, serious!

lilian said...

The first sentence of the article you mentioned is already very confusing to me.

The illustrious Malaysian Christian community have repeatedly asked that the name of Allah be allowed to be used in their bible


The name Allah is already in the Bible since the 1700+. Please do not confuse your readers by using an article that smacks of error from the first sentence. The issue that has gone to court is about The Herald, which is a weekly newsletter for Catholics only.

A. Kadir Masin said...

Ala nuraina, tak habis habis la kau ni...

there is only One Creator, and the God of christians is the same God (Allah) of muslims.

Kalau kau tak paham paham ni lagi, nak main berdebat lagi macam apocryphalist, u can go on and debate till kingdom comes la

Anonymous said...

christian God's name Yahweh, Adonai, Elohim, I am but not 'allah'. So please use the original name . Don't try to other people's gods name.

Ben Israel said...

Why don't we let God be God and let him judge who are wrong. Let us on earth just live in peace with each other.

If we truly believe that God, whether Jesus, Allah, or [INSERT YOUR CHOICE HERE] is certainly Almighty and God over all, then let vengeance be His and not ours to decide.

After all, He is God and not us.

syedaziz said...

You're mixing with bad company these days, Nuraina. Like to cucuk all the sensitive issues. I think Rocky is a bad influence on you. What do you really believe in, in your heart? Somehow, I don't believe you are a racist or UMNO crony.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05ILlMySCQE&feature=related

Anonymous said...

stupid blogger. umno janji nak bayar kau berapa? sial betul.

lleekh said...

I have always wondered how anyone can "believe" in god, allah, satan, angels, heaven and hell. In the old days yes! But not anymore. Just consider this. The Muslims go to perform the Haj (this was pre-Islam mind you) and in the process go to a special place to "stone" the devil or satan! Imagine Nuraina you are from here in Malaysia and travelling all the way to somewhere in the desert where you have been told the devil is waiting to be stoned by you!! This devil is reputedly a bid bad dude! You dont go mess around with him! Even god has got his hands full! So here you are from half way across the world throwing stones at the devil! Man are you looking for trouble?? I am not surprised we have had so many problems because so many of us has gone to do the haj of late. WOuld you be surprised if the devil was at work here in Malaysia? ANyway has it ever occurred to anyone who believed that the devil is just stooopid! He has been hanging around there for the last 14 centuries for you to throw stones at!!! Long ago I too believed that the dog was eating the sun and the moon during the eclipse! Would you believe such nonsense after learning science in Form 1? Are You reading the Quran with an open mind? Have you read the bible or are you going to read the bible like you read the Quran? You can do the world a lot of good if you care to tell people that we are all made up of oxygen and hydrogen atoms that has been around for ever! So all this cannot touch this and cannot eat that are all the nonsense from people who dont know better. Worse still is the true name of god by our god fearing minister. If you are honest come out and tell the truth. Free our people and everybody else from the burden of false beliefs and free yourself from the burden of false presentation. But if people need to believe let them be. They can call their god or devil any name. By the way you should be aware too that to a lot of people in the world allah or god or any word is just a sound, well maybe 2 sounds. Most wont be able to even differentiate or isolate that particular sound amid all the sounds coming out of our mouths.

Kama At-Tarawis said...

ILeekh, you are talking through your ars*****. if you don't know anything about the Hajj, don't simply comment. You think we Muslims go halfway around the world to throw stones at the devil? Go read uplah and get yourself acquainted with Islam before you say another word. Don't be such an ignoramus.

Anonymous said...

Nothing to see here.... Move on ..stale news

Anonymous said...

Hey ILLeek, I don't care a rat's ass if you are a non-believer but don't diss other people's beliefs and faiths, ok? if you HAVE co comment, please get your focking facts right.

A Believer

Apocryphalist said...

Kesian you Nuraina. Start quoting my article and you suddenly become a rogue journalist. All your scores of years of experience and integrity as a respected journalist are now belittled by your detractors, just because you write (nay, you just quote) something which you find worth posting.

But haven’t we met cases like these in the annals of mankind before? Abu Bakar was the most respected Qureshite during his time. His truthfulness and trustworthiness was such that for any bickering parties wanting some fair-minded judgment, he was the man to turn to. His honesty was sworn as testimonies. But once he engaged in believing in the Prophet Muhammad S.A.W. , he suddenly was deemed a liar and the vilest amongst the Quraish.

The annals of mankind also witness too many cases whereby the upholders of truth number in the minimal in the beginnings. The prophet Muhammad S.A.W’s initial followers were slaves and lowly personalities. The ones who belived in Jesus Christ A.S. during the inception of this wonderful faith were not the aristocratic Rabbis or the noble palace inhabitants but fishermen and other mundane personalities.

Luckily, you haven’t reached the stage like that of Raja Petra Kamarudin, where he once says,
Look at the issue of free speech. When I whack the Malays, I am a great guy. I am open. I am fair. I am a person who allows and practices freedom of expression. But, when I whack the Chinese, I am a racist pig. Whacking Malays is good for the country and in the spirit of free speech. Whacking the Chinese is a negative thing and bad for the country’s future.
But alas for “Yang Mulia” RPK! Faustus had sold his soul to Mephistopheles, or that P Ramlee character had sold his soul to Iblis so that he could be the powerful orang minyak. But regrettive though they may have been, it’s too late to turn back now. The clamour of praises, applauds and recognitions they have gotten so far are too dinful to ignore. So press on they must, towards the destructive path of evil, inherently aware in the deep labyrinths of their psyche that what they do is wrong but too powerless to change.

Lillian here says she is confused because she finds that the name Allah had been used in Malay since 1700+. Well you might very well be, Lillian, because this aim to confuse has been embedded right from that time. How many malays during that time frame could even READ or understand what the christian missionaries were about to do in this Tanah Melayu at that time? And even if they could, how many of them do you think were powerful enough to go against those colonial masters over what they were trying to do? Do you think if we had a JAKIM as powerful as we have now during those times, they would just shut one eye on this most heinous attempt to Dirty the Name of the One True God? So in short Lillian, your confusion in this matter can be attributed to the fact that the inclusion of the word Allah in the bible in the 18th century was forced on to the throat of the helpless and unwilling Tanah Melayu communities by those intent to convert the malays here at that time. Two centuries have passed and that intent has not diminished, only sugar-coated with the words fairness and diplomacy and be thrust again in lieu of the weakness of the current Abdullah government.

Lastly, other commenters either the ones who are loud-but-lack-points, or like that anti-theis, anti-Islamist Lleekh we don’t have to waste time in putting up counter arguments. If I want to argue with lost souls like these, there are plenty both within the net and without for me to play around with. I agree with him though regarding the devil has been in existence for centuries. What jolted me out of dream’s way is the realization that he is well versed in the internet’s blogosphere too.

:-)

Apocryphalist.

Anonymous said...

the fallen angel (masked) : " ...hehe
hehe...hahaha...just look at YOUR
finest creation ...miserable & confused & bergaduh2 ....hehehe...hahaha...!!!"
ppl O ppl, wake up lah !!

Kingdom Come said...

A. Kadir Masin, syedaziz, anonymous 10.26PM... Hmm, sounds soooo....similar.

I can't see what the problem here is - I mean in Nuraina focusing on this post by Jebat Must Die. Most of these `comments' are useless, personal attacks - which just show the writer/s mentality.

So, lilian says it's already in the Bible "since the 1700+"... Err, where, please? Penang? Or Malacca? Kelantan perhaps?

BTW which is it that I can't find it in the Bibles of today then? No, not the ones printed in Malaysia. Let's have one printed in... ITALY... any place nearest the Vatican will do.

Is Allah used too in these bibles? No? Why not? And why then are these people so keen to have this term used HERE in MALAYSIA??

There must be a SPECIAL reason...

Old Fart said...

Clever, and yet very stupid arguments!

Allah as used in the Malay Bible is used as a generic noun. Not as a pronoun. And later on that Allah is called Yahweh, Jehovah....whatever.... It is like requiring me to call my cat "Cat"!!

The issue here has really nothing to do with any doctrinal differences or confusion. The Malay Muslims are already so ingrained into Islam that after a few centuries of having lived with, first, the Portugese, then the Dutch and later the British, hardly any one of them converted. Mission schools were a dire failure if there was the intent of inducing conversion amongst Muslims.

So why the sudden expression of fear and confusion now?


Nothing more than political play. Apocryphalist's missive begins by discrediting itself when he suggests "the Malaysian government has repeatedly disallowed it for reasons of purity and sanctity"!! Surely he cannot be serious suggesting there is anything sanctified about the Government's move or for that matter, this government and its leaders!!

One thing I know that will be achieved if and when the Government gets its way is this. "Ketuanan Melayu" and everything that that assumes will permanently be implanted in the minds of the ordinary Malay. After all to the majority of the Bumiputra's "ketuanan Melayu" has not gotten them anything. This will be something tangible that they have dominance over the non-Malays. That UMNO has dominance over all other political parties.

The political pay-off is indeed great and it is worth every cent. UMNO is unable to show how its "ketuanan Melayu" has benefitted the ordinary Malay. This overlording over the Christians certainly would give many, salivating satisfaction.

As for me, a long time ago I did say to one, my God happens to be my buddy and amigo! I call Him "I"!! No other name comes anywhere close in describing Him better!!!

By the same token, from Apocryphalist's arguments another question that naturally emerges is how come, out of all the names chosen, a noun that pre-Islamic pagans used to refer to their Gods is chosen to be the name(pronoun) of the Muslim's God?

Nuraina, I think you are really out of your depth in assuming such articles as written by Apocryphalist are worthy of reference, or worse, reproduction.

I still maintain, that there is a word for God in Malay. That is Tuhan. I am actually more comfortable using Tuhan than using Allah...for personal reasons and for what "Allah" represents to me. Right or wrong!!


But Allah has been used for several hundred years already within this community without association to the Muslim's Allah. Except for politicians taking issue ordinary Christians or Muslims have not had a problem with its use.

Maybe, someone can help me with this though. What and when is the earliest written objection by Muslims anywhere to the use of "Allah" by christians?

Damansara said...

I POSTED THIS COMMENT ON ROCKY’S BRU EARLIER.
HOPING TO POST IT HERE TOO, WITH SOME MODIFICATION

I grew up in Sabah for a long 15 years.

I went to a missionary school throughout my schooling days in Sabah; SRK & SMK St. John’s in Tuaran, Sabah.

So going and playing, even watching, prayers sessions in the church on Sundays is nothing new to me.

In fact, during my time, we were allocated a single uniform time to learn religion in school; all the Christians will go to the church next to our school, while we the Muslims shall gather in one big classroom at the same time.

Needless to say, being a naughty boy, I prefer to go to the church as it was more fun (with all the singing and nice food) and with more friends (actually it was the Kadazan girls).

Thus I am really perplexed with all this fuss about Christians wanting to use the word ‘Allah’ as a reference to God.

Making it worst, it was claimed that it was the Sabahan and Sarawakian are the root of the issue!

Because not once did I heard them referring God as Allah.

It was always Lord Jesus, Tuhan Jesus, Jesus Christ, God Almighty, Lord etc.

The closest that I can rationalize these claims are when we talk to each other; they always refer Tuhan Allah as Muslim’s God (‘Tuhan Ala’ is more appropriate due to their slang like some of our Chinese friends) and Tuhan Jesus as Christian’s God.

Just like our Chinese friends, at times during a conversation they shall refer God as ‘Tuhan Ala’. But ask them who is their God – its always Jesus!!

And it is also weird to claim that some Christians are more familiar and felt closer to God if they were to use the word Allah. This cannot be true as throughout any sermon or singing, not once will you hear the word ‘Allah’ uttered.

Actually this particular claim is a real insult to all our Christians friends.

Are you telling me they don’t even know their God’s name?

Lets us see the bigger picture. Stop this nonsense.

Lets not cloud our mind and our relationship on unnecessary tension and that can turn into needless religious provocation.

Anonymous said...

Apa nak kecoh kecoh ni? Tu ha petition pun dah siap, apa lagi hantar je lah kat pope kalau tak puas hati kat malaysian govt!

This Herald peopel cuma tau nak racun orang je. Bila kerajaan dah larang, terima je lah.

Yang sampai nak bawak masuk mahkamah ni apahal pulak?

Bila time nak mintak, bukan main serious.

Bila suruh buat petition ke pope, tak nak pulak.

Baca balik la petition tu... Bagus apa!

(Julian)

sangkakala said...

Saya hairan bagaimana orang Islam di Malaysia hendak memonopoli penggunaaan perkataan Allah, sedangkan umat Kristian di negara lain (di Indonesia khususnya), tak ada masalah perkataan itu digunakan oleh orang Kristian.

Lagipun, bukankah agama Kristian itu dari Allah juga, dan merupakan agama yang benar sebelum lahirnya Islam? Jadi apa salahnya mereka menggunakan perkataan Allah seperti orang Islam?

Jadi mengapa orang Islam dan Kristian perlu bergaduh tentang hal ini?

Anonymous said...

Old Fart dan mereka yang anti quoting,

Apa salahnya nuraina quote other people's blog or news item?
Sejak bila it is a crime?
Banyak lagi blog yg buat benda yg sama, quoting even more ridiculous things!
Kalau hati dah busuk, bila rasa mcm kena challenge dan mula tulis benda2 mcm ni pd nuraina
Menunjukkan korang ni ada niat tak baik asalnya.
Let her quote from whatever source she deemed important. It is her blog; not yours. Kalau tak puas hati, jgn baca.
If you still insist ridiculing her for just quoting from other ppl's blog, then jgnla
Bisinh bising ckp no freedom of speech in malaysia!
Paku dulang paku serpih la ko ni Old Fart

Julian again

San Peng said...

Nuraina - this might be relevant for some of your 'fans' here.

The Qur-an 2:15-20

(15)Allah (Himself) doth mock them, leaving them to wander blindly on in their contumacy.

(16) These are they who purchase error at the price of guidance, so their commerce doth not prosper, neither are they guided.

(17) Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindleth fire, and when it sheddeth its light around him Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness, where they cannot see,

(18) Deaf, dumb and blind; and they return not.

(19) Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder and the flash of lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears by reason of the thunder-claps, for fear of death, Allah encompasseth the disbelievers. (in His guidence)

(20) The lightning almost snatcheth away their sight from them. As often as it flasheth forth for them they walk therein, and when it darkeneth against them they stand still. If Allah willed, He could destroy their hearing and their sight. Lo! Allah is able to do all things.

Damansara said...

Lilian,

If its true that the word Allah has been in the bible, WHY ONLY FROM 1700++. Why not from the start?

If the Bible is indeed the word of God (I do believe the original scripture to be true), why do Christians play ‘God’ by modifying it?

Are you telling us that God have different messages to different sect in Christianity?

That is exactly our point; you changed your God’s name according to your perception, and you get others involved.

So stop blaming others if you got confused.

Eric said...

So sad to see so many of us (sadly me included) are confused about each other's religion despite living together for centuries.
One case in point: JMD and Kingdom Come confusing Catholics (who see the pope as their spiritual leaders) and Christians as whole (to simplify protestants and orthodoxes who do not see the pope as their spiritual leader).
When will we ever stop whipping these issues for political expediency?

Damansara said...

OLD FART

Not clever, and very very stupid arguments!

How the hell it went from a religious-sensitive issue to Ketuanan Melayu?

Anonymous said...

The Herald are just trying to test the patience of the muslims.

If you are just a minority, then conform to the sihes of the majority lah.. why so hard to do?

If the minority takes into their own hands whatever they'd wish for then there will be anarchy.

by Anti hypocrisy

WY Kam 甘永元 said...

JBM is a waste of time.

Eric said...

Apologies, my comment should read as follows:
"So sad to see so many of us (sadly me included) are confused about each other's religion despite living together for centuries.
One case in point: JMD, Apocryphalist and Kingdom Come confusing Catholics (who see the pope as their spiritual leaders) and Christians as whole (to simplify catholics plus protestants and orthodoxes who don't).
When will we ever stop whipping these issues for political expediency?"

Anonymous said...

Nuraina, it's really amusing. christians and muslims believe there is only one GOD.
The questions to ask is "are they the same GOD or different ?
Logically, if they believe there is only one GOD, there is no other GOD, other than Allah.
Confusing ???

tharieq dhiyauddin said...

Salam,

u HERALD guna sajalah perkataan Tuhan dan Illahi.. sama jugak maksud.. reader pun tahu.. buat apa mahu complicated, susah-susah mahu guna perkataan "ALLAH". U tak yakin ke dengan u punya tuhan wahai HERALD?

Anonymous said...

aiyah ! 'take heed'...ppl, pls
'TAKE HEED ' , ok !! GODBLESS.

jebatmustdie said...

Folks, it is established here (from the many comments that are pro Herald) that putting the word Allah in their publication is not because of religious necessity. It is only a lingual issue. They gave many examples of how the name Allah is being used since before Islam or in the case of Malaysia, since around 1800. Many examples were cited about the word ‘Allah’ being used in Christian books. All this amount to a single argument that the pursuit of using the word Allah is just because - it has been used before as part of the language.

Therefore, I have come to conclude that it is indeed a lingual issue. They did not give any examples such as the Christians’ faith will be eroded if the name Allah is NOT put in their Bible (indeed, in the bibles world over, 99% of them do not have the name Allah in the scriptures).

As it is, even if they had replaced the word ‘Tuhan’ for ‘Allah’ in their publication, it will not jeopardise their faith (from the many stories we heard, the Christians world over themselves including here in Malaysia do not pray to the name Allah in their prayers).

Now, the crux of the matter is, since it IS JUST A LINGUAL ISSUE from the Christian point of view, but at the same time, it unfortunately impinges on the religious sensitivities of THE MUSLIMS, then here is the question. WHICH IS THE MORE IMPORTANT factor that needs to be considered and give weight to?

Logic dictates it should be the Muslims point of view. It does not matter whether it violates the minority rights so on and so forth. That is not the issue here. Do not cloud the issue with the bogus and hypocritical cries from the so called agents of disunity in shouting freedom of speech, minority rights etc… They are there because they hate the government. But that is a different matter altogether. In this case, they had inadevertently mixed two different issue into one. Hence, the ulterior motives are unveiled in front of our eyes.

Thank you.

paloi bin mulau said...

lilian,

you said Allah in bible already have since 1700++. may i ask...who printed this? it is for use in malaysia...or borneo at that time?

please dont tell me this bible for borneo indigeneous people. their mothertongue is not bahasa indonesia at that time.

Don Ambrose said...

I am a REAL BUMIPUTRA FROM SABAH.

We lived here for centuries, and this is our land. We have our language.

We are the rightful natives of this land.

Wahai Melayu UMNO semenanjung. Saya pribumi Kristian Borneo, dan saya mahu gunakan nama Allah apabila saya merujuk pada Nya. Sama seperti tok nenek saya. Kamu apahal mau masuk campur hal pribumi wahai imigren2 melayu umno dari indon?

Anonymous said...

DOn ambrose ni mmg takde akal punya...

ni bukan Umno punya hal aje lah...

nak pakai nama Allah kalu... apa lagi...

sign la petition tu sekali sebab kamu sekarang percaya yang ALLAH tu tuhan kamu juga...

Anonymous said...

God is Tuhan in Bahasa Melayu. Allah is an arabic word.

Boy are we a confused lot, or just pretending to be confused?

Anonymous said...

Comments censored over at Jebat Must Die ...

couple of points …

The Pope does not represent all Christians. The 16th century Protestant Reformation was ignited by the rediscovery of the authentic interpretation of the source of the Christian Faith, i.e. Holy Scriptures. Protestants do not officially recognise the authority of the Pope anymore than the Eastern Orthodox, ecumenical endeavours notwithstanding. On the other hand, there many versions of Protestantism today. Modern evangelicals which constitute the vast majority of Protestants, including Malaysia, are not Protestants in the sense that Blessed Dr. Martin Luther, Blessed Dr. John Calvin, Blessed Martyr Archbishop Thomas Cranmer, Blessed Patriarch Cyril Lukaris, etc. were.

Jesus Christ, the Son of God, very God of very God did not only died on the Cross to redeem the elect sinners from original sin, but actual sin as well. Original sin is the sin which every single human being commits by being a member of the human race in Adam. Adam as the head of the human race fell into sin, by succumbing to the temptation to be divine - gods. Adam was put into the Garden to be human, to care for the world, and not to worry about his destiny. To do so is put self in control, to arrogate for oneself the right “to go UP to heaven”.

God the Son became Incarnate precisely to come DOWN to earth so that mankind can become truly HUMAN again. Jesus triumphed over sin and death. He was born under the Law to destroy the Law. Sinners who are made right with God the Father are no longer under the curse, threats and demands of the Law, but FREED precisely to do good works without worry about his/her destiny.

Therefore, the Christian do good works for the sake of the neighbour and the neighbour alone. As he/she is justified before the sight of God, receiving the unconditional, the gracious, the unmerited forgiveness of all sins, he/she is “turned back” to the world to do good works, to care for the world and to share in solidarity the sufferings, cause, etc. of his fellow human beings. He receives the world back as a gift. He sees the Law in a new light.

The Law is not a ladder to heaven, but to remind mankind to be truly human. The Law has two main functions:

1. To curb and restrain outward evil, and to regulate society;
2. To accuse a person of sin.

The way of salvation as redisovered by the 16th century Protestant Reformation is not top-down but bottom up. This is what the Incarnation, the Crucifixion and Resurrection is all about.

Salvation then is not about “accepting the message of the Gospel”. Salvation is Jesus dying on the cross for the sins of the elect. Who are the elect? The elect are those whom God has predestined from before the foundations of the world to be justified in His sight. Positively, God is absolutely sovereign; negatively, the person is totally depraved. These two basic premises form the pillar and ground of the Gospel - the Good News …….

Back to the issue: No restrictions can be placed on the USE of the term, “Allah” save the circulation of materials containing the term thereof. To do so is against the Constitution which preserves the balance between Islam as the official religion and the freedom of religion.

As for my view on whether the Allah of the Arabic and Malay-speaking Christians is the same God as the Allah of Quran, the answer is an obvious NO.

Anonymous said...

I am a Sarawakian, a christain and a native of Sarawak. Our ancestors were headhunters once and had mostly believed in Animism. Then some fine days -way before Malaysia was born some Tuans came to Sarawak preaching christainity. God knows what the converted natives called God then. Since the natives couldn’t speak English the missionary priests opted to learn and speak the native languages instead - predominantly the Iban language. To see the Tuans speak Ibans for instance was quite amusing to the simple longhouse folks. Many missionary schools were set up in Sarawak whereby the children of Ibans, Lauts, Bidayuh, Melanaus, China, Tambi (mostly baieee) attended. The teachers at the mission schools (majority priests) would then require sutdents (irrespective of their race, religion or religionless - to pray a morning prayer in English or even in Iban - a christain way, with the sign of cross, etc. like : dalam nama apai, nama anak enggau roh kudus….

Notice that - where the heck that language “roh kudus” was coming from? It’s definitely not from the Iban, Bidayuh, Kelabit, etc.

We the christain natives have been hearing our Tuan whiteman priests preaching in Iban langauge who referred to God as “Allah Taala”…but mind you most of the natives did not know how to read and write, so they heard something like “Alah Tala”…but no issue for us. The point is whether the origin of this “Alah Tala” was from Saudi Arabia, Ireland, Russia, Sipadan, Timbuktu, or wherever, we don’t care! What we care is that we have been using it and refer to God.

But now after so many donkey years…if you like to count from 1800, well that’s quite a lot of years (although some Ibans then were still busy pursuing head hunting activities and tribal warfare) - but now, yes only now, after the formation of Malaysia, our brother Muslims in Malaysia, mainly the West Malaysians - Orang Malaya we called them in our local slang, AGAINST the native christains to use the word!

Sensitive or not, minority or majority or not, all these depend on which angle you are looking at it from. From our Dayak christain angle, we oppose such as a call, as we think it is unfair and discriminate is the minority bumiputra. Had this cropped up during the formation of Malaysia, Tun Jugah then would have said “NO”. So, is this now an issue the Herald is trying to depend. What’s wrong they depend? We from East Malaysia say now to our brother Malays, come on big brothers, please give us a chance!

Empanggup

Libation Bearer said...

Hello Too-Ballless-to-put-own-name Anonymous of 5:29 pm,

Itu macam kaaa ini Klistian ajar? Nabi Adam makan itu buah dalam syurga kalu, habis satu dunia sampai day of resurrection tanggung dia satu olang punya dosa? Ini betut bodoh punya teaching. No wonder more and more people turning away from Christianity in the west into either disbelief or into other religions.

You know, I dont think Jesus Christ ever taught that at all. Ever! It was first taught by Augustine of Hippo 400 years after Jesus Christ. Many things maaa Jesus Christ never taught one. Then they put it in. Then they take it out again. As if the Holy Book is like buku 555 that you write and erase masa mahu hutang beli sulat khabar kedai mamak maaa.

At least you make your stand clear at the last sentence: they are not the same Allah. Then why sibuk sibuk one to put His Name in? Put Yahweh laaaaa ....

Next strategy: if the intellectuals and the thinking people in the west leave Christianity by the masses, then we have to fill up those holes with those yang kureng intellect. South East Asians, here we come!

Oh Jeepers. We can only convert the chinese. These malay buggers too degil maaa. Right from zaman Hang Tuah up till now, they are all a degil lot. Woi malays! Lu orang tatak nampak kaa? Jonas Brothers, Jennifer Alba semua Christian maa. Tengok itu Kong Chua Sim sekalang sudah jadi Emanuel Kong. Banyak cool punya bunyi wo! Lu bila lagi?

Ini melayu semua cibai degil maa.

selampit said...

Dear Old Fart,

You wrote;

"Allah as used in the Malay Bible is used as a generic noun. Not as a pronoun. And later on that Allah is called Yahweh, Jehovah....whatever.... It is like requiring me to call my cat "Cat"!!"

Smart argument, it may be applied to Christians, BUT NOT TO MUSLIMS. NEVER!!

While it is beyond doubt that your cat is ‘cat’, the TRINITY DOGMA states that 'Allah' is the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.

So Jesus is 'Allah' in this sense. The problem is, to attribute ‘Allah’ to Jesus is BLASPHEMY in Islam, a mortal sin of the highest order. On the contrary, the Christians do not commit any sin if they refrain from using the word Allah, since they’ve been doing so for two thousand years.

And TRINITY IS A DOGMA in Christendom, IT CAN NOT BE DISPUTED in any way, unless of course, you sever ties with Papacy and the Church of England (Protestantism). Thus when a fellow Christian utters “Allah bless” after sneezing, he is referring to Jesus in earnest, and he HAS TO because IT IS A DOGMA. In fact, whenever a fellow Christian says or write the word ‘Allah’, he is wholeheartedly referring to Jesus.

And for your information, Yahweh, Jehovah and other forms of the ‘tetragammaton’ 'YHWH' is NOT JESUS; unless Judaism also embraces trinity, which in any case I find highly unlikely.

The Torah was revealed in ancient Hebrew, it DOES contain the word 'Allah'. The Psalms was revealed unto David in the Coptic tongue; it DOES NOT contain the word 'Allah'. Similarly the Bible was revealed in Assyrian-Aramaic unto Christ Jesus, it too DOES contain the word 'Allah'. The word Allah only made its first appearance exclusively in the Quran as revealed unto Muhammad. In fact ‘Allah’ is derived from Arabic ‘Al’ (The), and ‘Illah’ (God).

Which is why I find it rather odd - this obsession and fixation to use an Arabic word that DOES not appear in neither the old and the new testament.

Believe me, our Christian pribumis in East Malaysia WILL NOT lose their faith in the Lord as their Savior if they DO NOT USE the word 'Allah'. Just look at their brothers and sisters in the neighboring Philippines. They are all devout followers of Christ over there, even without the word ‘Allah’.

And please (with sugar on tops), THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS! It is all about AKIDAH to us. We divert from the true akidah and we lose eternity.

For your information we Muslims do not worship UMNO or Ketuanan Melayu, we worship the God Almighty five times a day

Old Fart said...

Jebatmustdie

I think you have set out a reasonable argument. It is most definitely a lingual issue. An issue that to me never occurred to have violated or would become a problem to my fellow Malaysians of the Muslim faith. You could not have expected the Christians to think that using Allah may be an issue with Muslims, rightly or wrongly.

What was needed in the first place would have been some friendly chats and a quiet whisper on an informal basis to sus out what to do about this.

I am confident, communicated properly this matter would never have arisen. I believe The Herald would have been mindful and quietly just excluded the use of the word Allah. Bahasa Bibles are mainly imported from Indonesia and not much can be done about this at this time. And I believe it is really no big deal to completely otherwise not use Allah among Christians in Malaysia.

Instead of that, the manner in which this seems to have been communicated would suggest that those in power just wanted to show their power. They issue orders and so on and make all kinds of accusations.

Bloggers whose understanding of issues, is something I have to now question, make it even worse by propagating the wrong message like the petition that is being drafted to the Pope for instance.

Under these circumstances I too would have no choice but to tell the proponents of this Allah censorship to shove off.

Shows you what idiots we have in our politicians. Communicating your sensitivities is not by issuing orders that transgress into other peoples' territories just because you think you can.

Jebatmustdie, now that you have probably been the one to identify what I think might just be the core issue, maybe if you think what I say here makes sense, then we should move to push this debate out of here and into a more friendly atmosphere where civility will prevail and decency will allow for the needful to happen.

What is happening now is just mischievous and without realising popular bloggers who should know better are fueling the fire.

paloi bin mulau said...

dom ambrose,

cuba ko sakap sama sia sejak bila org borneo sakap bahasa melayu/indonesia? kalau iban memang sakap iban bah. kalau dusun memang cakap dusun bah.

orang bajau yg islam pun cakap bajau bah. jadi jawab soalan sia sejak bila orang borneo cakap bahasa indoneia ni?

BrightEyes said...

Well Empanggup & Don Ambrose...

You can see in this article & the comments alone... the ignorance and arrogance of many Wessies towards your religious/cultural practices & the indigenous Christian community of East Malaysia. Who certainly are no small number...

Even within Bumiputeras there's a 'First' & 'Second' class. To paraphrase Orwell... "All Bumis are Sons-Of-The-Soil, but some Bumis are greater Sons-Of-The-Soil than others"

Damansara said...

Actually all this confusing issues and debates can be solved in one stroke of honesty; just go back to the real scripture.

At the end of the day, Bible is supposed to be the Word of God.

Never once it asked any Christians to play God

Anonymous said...

All these are man made. Man made these for man to believe.

And now man themselves are arguing amongst man themselves.

Are we man enough to admit these man made stuff?

Where's god when we need him at this godly hour?

Gawd knows!

A GOOD MAN DOES NOTHING.

Anonymous said...

Nuraian & Apocryphalist,

Good post and nice writings and arguments.

Allah grant you the courage and wisdom to write and explain things. Alhamdullilah.

For those Muslim that cannot see the truth, go back and start praying and seek blessing from Allah, because Allah is All Merciful. I fear the wrath from Allah and I pary it would not befall our Muslimin and Muslimat.

Anonymous said...

Ini betut bodoh punya teaching.

That's the whole point. The Good News, Khabar Gembira, is not from ABOVE, does not come from HERE. It's foreign, alien, strange, it's ... OFFENSIVE(!!!) to you AND me. So, it's a MIRACLE when the SINNER who is BOUND to sin believes the Gospel. Christ crucified on the Cross is foolishness and a stumbling-block. In this world, we live by condition. The Gospel, from another world, is UNconditional. As they say, di-situlah, terletak pangkalnya.

And one more thing don't denigrate Malays or whoever with obscene words. You think you're different from the Malay? You think I'm different from the Malay? We are all sinners, you fool!

Lastly, conversion is the work of God. It's not the work of man. So, you listen carefully, the Church in Malaysia whether Protestant (which I am) or Roman Catholic (which I disagree and oppose) or modern-day happy clappy evangelicals (which Protestants today are) is bound to obey the authorities of the day as divinely ordained. Go and read Romans 13. This means that we cannot proselytise Muslims because we respect the laws of the land. Christians like non-Christians are bound to the LAW. There is no higher morality which distinguishes a Christian from a non-Christian. Remember, for the Christian, his/her righteousness is not earned, but entirely from "above". So, Christian and non-Christian do the same good works (outwardly). No difference at all. The breaking-point is only when there are Malays and other Muslim bumiputeras who COME to us secretly. That's the line we draw. Understand?

Anonymous said...

Another thing mr. libation, you listen very carefully ...

There were two things which Zahid Hamidi said were - to a large extent - correct.

1. Based on the Constitution, Malaysia IS an Islamic state. Not "directly" (i.e. legally) but "indirectly" (i.e. symbolically). Even someone with a superficial understanding like you would know (and presumably respect) that in mainstream Islam, there is no separation between religion and politics. So, even though I am a DAP and PR supporter, I have no qualms with the notion of an Islamic state as long as it is properly defined. So, I disagree with Kit Siang and Karpal since their conception is actually one-sided (since they appeal to a LEGAL definition only) without taking into account as they say, the "hakikat politik" or political reality of the day.

2. Malaysia is a sovereign nation and has the right to establish laws it deems fit as long as it does not infringe on the basic or fundamental liberties, freedom, rights. The government of the day has the right to limit the circulation of any publication, including the Herald. But it has no right at all to tell people how they conduct their religion. Banning the use of Allah is tantamount to just that. How EXISTING religious practice with long-standing precedent is not the business of the government. That's the meaning of freedom of religion (under the Constitution). How non-Muslim are to PUBLICLY PROPAGATE their respective religions like through publications are subject to LIMITED limits imposed by the government as it deems fit. The two are not the same.

So, understand this Mr. Libation Fool.

Anonymous said...

Comment censored over at Jebat Must Die (again) ...

Jebat, jangan kurang ajar. Kita kan tau your intention to compose that letter to the Pope was done in a half-mocking manner. And don’t try to wiggle your way around. It’s only when you discovered to your horror that my comments was posted over at Nuraina’s that only then did you posted mine. Now, you or the government have no right at all to ban the use of Allah on Malay-speaking Christians. Don’t interfere in other people’s religion. How they conduct their worship and how they address God is their business, not yours. This is a lesson in freedom of religion. I am not going to hammer your head, although you deserve one. But it is worth understanding that EXISTING religious practice with long-standing claim to historical precedent is not the concern of the government.

If confusion exists, then it is YOUR problem. Not ours. Understand this, and this will go a long way towards resolving religious and racial harmony in this country. There is no justification whatsoever, not in the name of the Quran, Muhammad or Islam, for banning the use of Allah on Malay-speaking Christians. Period.

Talk about consistency. The rest of the muslim world does not engage in this stupid act and you want to claim that which is clearly a fundamental breach of human right. Listen here, there is no human right for muslims and human right for non-muslims. ALL have the same human rights. The sooner the likes of you understand this, the better.

Dayana said...

I'm sorry, but I must speak up... this is VERY insulting... and intolerant of other people's religion. It is downright rude.

Islam is meant to be a gentle religion. Islam is meant to lead others to enlightenment.

"Fight in the cause of Allah against those who fight you, but do not transgress limits. Allah does not love transgressors" (2:190)
Shame on you.

Surely, you'd not want people of other faiths to make a mockery of Islam and the Prophet this way, especially when they have not understood the religion fully.

Which you have done to Christianity by grouping all Christians under the umbrella of the Pope.

santa said...

actually gomen scared that malays too stupid to understand the difference la ..after they get confused and all become christians beramai-ramai..

becos malays not strong in their faith and knowledge of their faith.. british also say this race not the sharpest tool in the shed la...

just like the economy, their faith also mesti tongkat lar mauhahahahahha

Anonymous said...

The use of the term "Allah" in the Christians' literatures was started by SIB (Sidang Injil Borneo) which was started by the wife of an ex-President of Indonesia. She was a disbeliever (more to anti-Islam but married to a muslim and was trying hard to convert her husband the Bapa Presiden) and wanted to confuse the Indonesian [came all the theories to brainwashed the masses that "lu punya tuhan sama gua punya tuhan" and the many adaptive changes to the already plug & play teachings]. She started the SIB Gereja. So in biblical literature, it only started quite recently. Don't be surprised as in Indonesia they do allow this mixed-religions marriage (hoping I guess that the Christians are orthodox in belief - to use that "people of the book" clause).

Why didn't the Indonesian protest against the usage? ~ See earlier statement - of the founder of the church.

Interestingly, in her quest to 'play-a-fool' with the Almighty, she even went to Mecca. Don't know what happened there but on her return to Indonesia, she died. (Can check the history books of Indonesia for dates of quest to "menyesatkan" = date she married the President, my assumption.)
After her death, as it goes, when the mastermind died, things turned chaotic.

To those who asked why are the Christians so "sibuk-sibuk" insisting on the use of the name: To start with, price-tag for a muslim-convert is a lucrative business in their association to lead-astray. And to put it in MLM style, once you start singing 3 times a week, you don't go in empty handed. ;p

~ FYI, tq

arah said...

Allah the Almighty Creator

21:22 (Y. Ali) If there were, in the heavens and the earth, other gods
besides Allah, there would have been confusion in both! but glory to
Allah, the Lord of the Throne: (High is He) above what they attribute
to Him!

Who are we to prevent others especially the Christian to called
Almighty God the Creator as Allah?

It only proved the failure of our education system. After more than 50
yrs of independent and living together, many Muslim don’t even
understand Al Quran and Hadith or share Islam with their non Muslim
neighbours and friends.

Didn’t the Malaysian Government realised that Prophet Abraham is the
father of all the three major faiths ie Islam, Christian and Judaism.?

Allah the Almighty Creator is the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus,
Muhammad (peace be upon them) and all mankind, believers and non
believers.

Why don’t we refer to the Quran and find the guidance there
• 2:1 (Y. Ali) A.L.M.
• 2:2 (Y. Ali) This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without
doubt, to those who fear Allah.
• 2:3 (Y. Ali) Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and
spend out of what We have provided for them;
• 2:4 (Y. Ali) And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and
sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the
Hereafter.
• 2:5 (Y. Ali) They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is
these who will prosper.
• 2:6 (Y. Ali) As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them
whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
• 2:7 (Y. Ali) Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their
hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they
(incur).
• 2:8 (Y. Ali) Of the people there are some who say: “We believe in
Allah and the Last Day;” but they do not (really) believe.
• 2:9 (Y. Ali) Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe,
but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
• 2:10 (Y. Ali) In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased
their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they
are false (to themselves).

Allah warned the Christian in the Quran but why many fail to understand:

5:14 (Y. Ali) From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did
take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was
sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the
one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show
them what it is they have done.

5:15 (Y. Ali) O people of the Book! There hath come to you our
Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and
passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you
from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

5:16 (Y. Ali) Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure
to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His
will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

5:17 (Y. Ali) In blasphemy indeed are those that say that Allah is
Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against
Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother,
and all every - one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the
dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He
createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”

5:18 (Y. Ali) (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of
Allah, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your
sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth
whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah
belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is
between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”

There are many contradictions in the bible, however the true teaching
of Moses and Jesus (Esa) are well preserved by Allah.

Deuteronomy 5:6–11
6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt,
out of the house of slavery;
7 you shall have no other gods before me.
8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of
anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or
that is in the water under the earth.
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your
God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents,
to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those
who love me and keep my commandments.
11 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God,
for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

TRINITY is not the teaching of Jesus because Jesus preached One God
the Almighty Creator in the bible:
One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing
that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the
commandments, which is the most important?” “The most important one,”
answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord
is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your
soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is
this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment
greater than these.” (NIV, Mark 12:28-31).

Every Muslim old and young should understand the meaning of Ayatul
Qursi and Surah Ikhlas
• 2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. There is no god but He,-the Living, the
Self-subsisting, Eternal. No slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are
all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in
His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to
His creatures as) before or after or behind them. Nor shall they
compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth
extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in
guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in
glory).
• 112:1 (Y. Ali) Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
• 112:2 (Y. Ali) Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
• 112:3 (Y. Ali) He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
• 112:4 (Y. Ali) And there is none like unto Him.

Please ensure that all Muslim students learn and understand Aqidah or
Tauhid in school. The Education Minister and every muslims are
answerable to Allah if any Muslim student fail to understand Islam or
confused with the word " Allah" putting someone in jail or ISA for non
believer calling Allah as the Almighty Creator is not the teaching of
Islam or the Sunnah of Rasululah s.a.w.

A positive note from Allah to all Christians

Surah 5:Ayat: 82-83 “And thou wilt find the nearest of them in
affection to those who believe (to be) those who say: Lo! We are
Christians. That is because there are among them priests and monks,
and because they are not proud. When they listen to that which hath
been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with
tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say: Our Lord,
we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses”

Two very informative books must read by Muslim and Christian
http://www.usislam.org/converts/converts.htm
http://www.scribd. com/doc/2731984/ Jesus-the- Bible-Rashad- Abdul-Muhaimin

Allah know best

arah said...

To my Christian Friends

1.What did Jesus called his followers?

2.Did Jesus teach Trinity or Unity of Almighty God the Creator?

3.Who started to used the word " Christianity" ?

Please refer your bible for the answers, anyhow which bible version is the authentic?

Anonymous said...

Language issue, human right issue or religious issue? Maybe more on the first two. By disallowing the christian community to use the word 'Allah' in their scripts, the authority fails to respect their right as humans. Many people who posted comments on this blog seem to challenge the christians to look in the Bible for the word Allah. Nope, you will never find it in the original Bible, because the Bible has been translated into many languages. Thus, we refer to this issue only in relation to the Malaysian Bible (or rather, Indonesian ones since Bibles are not permitted to be printed in Malaysia anyway). I guess the real issue is the minority is being bullied. Just because they are the minority, they are stripped of their human rights to practice what they are comfortable of practising. Hey, what if all the non-muslims be placed in one part of Malaysia where they can live in peace and not viewed as threat to the high and mighty Majority? Then let them manage their own affairs, do not impose on them etc. I think I'd like that...although I'd certainly miss my good Muslim friends...

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